So, Communism is when you eliminate entrepreneurship as a s…

Using different label to hide ugly truth is another strategy Oligarchy created (its part of brainwashing)

Human > collateral
Terrorist > moderate rebel / combatants
Modern day slavery > Capitalism > entrepreneurship
etc

So are you denying that there are such things as entrepreneurial skills that differ from other skills?

As economic system (and others) is rule forced by law (and force) is indeed forced by government, so yes, one must take control of the government to change the rules

So Gov can work for benefit of workers or Oligarchy
hence Communism vs Capitalism

Are you suggesting that humans do not self-organize except under the "rule forced by law"?

No, not denying that at all, skill is a skill, but how much WORK & WORTH is it?

MASSIVE difference is RULES of the SYSTEM which will determine WHO GETS REWARDS from the work, it is DEMOCRATIC WORKER COOPERATIVE or DICTATORSHIP aka EXPLOITATION of workers?

So entrepreneurial skills differ from other skills. Cool.

Does specialization result in added efficiency and effectiveness of a person's skills? Asked differently, does practice and focus usually make someone better at the skills they are specialized in?

Specialisation doesn't define economic system
You have MANY workers, they specialise, create efficiencies etc in both Capitalism, State Capitalism & Communism

Difference is OWNERSHIP

WHO OWNS their work & with it, WHO BENEFITS from their work

So you agree that specialization is important. Cool! We're finding agreement on a lot of points. That's helpful.

How do you define "ownership"? If it helps, give an example. I understand that these things are difficult concepts to convey effectively.

Take kids who want to play football
1 kid has the ball only, no skill to play
other kids have no ball but play
If they play to earn money should kid with ball get the profits only?

Who decides?

If kid with ball = Capitalism
If collectively = Communism

So KEY is in DECISION MAKING and that is determined by WHO OWNS THE PRODUCTION ITSELF

When its non-democratic business (Capitalism/Feudalism/etc) owner will want profit for himself & he makes all decisions

Communism becomes DEMOCRATIC COOPERATIVE

Wow, is that really how it works in the real world? So crazy!

It's a good thing the NFL is a communist organization. You can tell, because the players are paid a hell of a lot of money.

Interesting thoughts.

So, we talked about entrepreneurial skills earlier. What are entrepreneurial skills?

I see you didn't get it
WHO DECIDES who gets paid & how much?
HOW MUCH DO PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T PLAY GET?

to you "Real world" is how it is now, you can't see a different better version of things because you personally didn't feel the thick end of the bat yet

Really, I didn't get it? That's too bad. This is so confusing.

How much do you think people who didn't play should get?

I'm really bad at sports, so if I can get paid when other people who are good at sports play, that'd be pretty cool.

You are all just plain ignorant...

Conclusion is very simple:
If you think Capitalism is good and not exploitation, you are either stupid, or very badly brainwashed or both, or a psychopaths/sociopath

That's all there is to it...

Lets try different "organisation" say Amazon

- 100,000+ of WORKERS
- 1 CEO/Owner

WHO DECIDES EVERYTHING?
Workers or 1 guy?

WHO GETS RICH?
Workers or 1 guy?

WHO CORRUPTS GOV to expand his business empire?
Workers or that 1 guy?

Listen to yourself

Yes, YOU DIDN'T GET IT

Its not about what I think, but what PEOPLE WHO DID THE WORK AND MADE IT ALL HAPPEN THINK

That is why Communism is equivalent to WORKER RUN/OWNED (workers owning their work) MEANS OF PRODUCTION where DECISION MAKING IS DEMOCRATIC

You told me to listen to myself, and then told me that I'm ignorant, and all sorts of other bad things, and that's all there is to it...

Which is it, should I listen to myself, or am I a bad person to listen to?

Wait, if it's all about people who did the work deciding and getting paid, then why do you want people who didn't play to get paid?

You are ignorant of things I write & you can't hear yourself when you are being ignorant

I say people who do the work should democratically decide everything

Then you ask should I decide who should get how much & not kid that owns the ball

Get it now?

So what you're saying is... You want to eliminate entrepreneurship as a specialization?

I never said that people who didn't do any work should get paid, you are mixing up Socialism which is something different

In Capitalism workers don't own their work, capitalist does
Capitalist also makes all decisions (& takes all profits)

"HOW MUCH DO PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T PLAY GET?" -- You

"How much do you think people who didn't play should get?" -- Me

On a side note, what % of Amazon's revenue do you think Jeff Bezos gets paid every year?

Socialism replicates how family works which is what makes healthy progressive society

Workers produce everything so should get all rewards, pay tax, gov uses tax to provide workers & their families with education, health etc

Creates closed loop
no $ leak

If all workplaces were democratic, owners could not just make all decisions & workers would participate in making all decisions

Over time people who just have $ & use that + work of others to make more $, would be no more. To earn, one must be productive.

Are entrepreneurs workers?

Entrepreneurship is all about being able to make sound decisions given the information and resources available to you.

You have agreed that specializing in skills, entrepreneurship included, makes one better at those skills...

Yet you argue against specialization in entrepreneurship. You argue that everyone should make entrepreneurial decisions.

Why? From what I gather, it's because you think an entrepreneur's work isn't more valuable than a "worker's" work.

Consider: Individuals are all their own means of production, and they are free to exchange their mind, body, labor, etc. for whatever they see fit. They choose for themselves what they are willing to exchange for - how much they are paid.

In fact, the workers *do* own the means of production, and they freely exchange that means for other things, such as money.

What you *actually* don't like is that some people are able to exchange for *more* money than others, doing different work.

No, not really. While they do some work in thinking of ideas how to make business etc, this type of work is not ongoing, its just at start.

Using PoW, their reward should be limited to work they did in initial stages only, not ongoing. Also $ is not work.

If entrepreneurs are to be workers they should work to think of new business ideas, get reward for that work only. As other workers take over doing the work, their role as workers ends & with it rewards also.

This would in effect create worker cooperative

You have repeatedly talked about entrepreneurs as "other" than "workers," yet entrepreneurial skills are work, too.

What you can't wrap your mind around is that *good* entrepreneurial skills are rare, so those who possess them can demand a higher price.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread with you because you have repeatedly undermined your own position. It's sad that you don't even know it, because you're too busy creating artificial and meaningless classifications of people.

You are inconsistent in your logic, contradicting yourself at every turn.

Further, you haven't the foggiest clue what your philosophy applied to the world would do.

Without specialization in entrepreneurship, resources are poorly allocated.

The result of poor resource allocation?

People go hungry.

Poverty is not escaped.

Literacy remains a luxury.

And governments force people not to specialize in the very skills that would change the world for the better.

Your arrogance and ignorance are despicable.

You tell me to listen to myself, but you don't even listen to yourself.

You see inequality in the world and think that is the real problem, but you don't see the fundamental causes of that inequality.

In fact, the cause is, largely, progress. The addition of value.

But make no mistake, I have no illusions that the world is a perfect place, or that people are not malicious, vindictive, and at times, evil.

People manipulate others all the time.

Capitalism is not the cause of this imperfection in humanity.

Capitalism is freedom coupled with reality, leading to reallocations of resources toward those who provide what lies at the intersection of supply and previously unmet demand.

That you are so full of hate does not make Capitalism a bad thing.

Regardless of your intentions, you are the one supporting the road to serfdom, not me.

And with that, I'm done with our conversation here. Goodbye.

Not at all, your mindset is simply stuck in existing business structure. You keep thinking that someone who has money deserved the right to get rewards for work that was done by others just because they STARTED the business. WORK is ONGOING.

Capitalism is system created by Oligarchy (who are psychopaths), is result of brainwashing, corruption of government which enables such system, makes it legal, forces it onto workers, which enables Oligarchy to keep extracting wealth from society.

Sentence 1: You tell me what my mindset is.
Sentence 2: You tell me what I'm thinking.

I didn't know you could read minds.

Quick, tell me what I'm thinking *right now*!!

I like that you're paying me with every response you make.

See, you said exact same crap the other guy did, you showed again how you see things one sided only

So as you can't see things from other people's perspectives I should remind you that you are paying me with every response you make also, so DuH 🙄

I admire that you have more intellectual comments, not like those other idiots who can't put single sentence with arguments, even if they are wrong, but I can't be fucked to keep this discussion here either

Twetch (same as Twitter) is HORRIBLE for this

Nonsense. Twetch is great for this.