Replies
1CtfHjRxn4UzNinEgUJgCCSV98yAZ6zVrZ (24100) ·
2.) What do you think happens when Division of Labor implodes? A world of trading partners devolves into a world of looters, as acquiring wealth through violence has suddenly become cheaper than acquiring it through production.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
What a timing with our threads. You really should address the details of what you mean when talking about “monetary tinkering” because I suspect it many times hides a lack of economic understanding. I wish these topics were easy but they really are not.
1CtfHjRxn4UzNinEgUJgCCSV98yAZ6zVrZ (24100) ·
You can't change the location or composition of all gold atoms, not even when some gold tragically sank to the bottom of the sea. That's one thing that's good about gold as money.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
Sure but Bitcoin isn’t gold and there are so many other things that are bad with it as money that other forms have been far more effective and therefor preferred by the market. Remember how little value exchange actually been settled with gold historically
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
Hey just got this from another in my thread. Read it as it exactly mentions your analogy to gold but with a twist to my favor.
https://craigwright.net/blog/bitcoin-blockchain-tech/fixing-op_fals/
1AjUnNeTbLY5rkmyGXMjBhZwfjjp9jKqin (24100) ·
It's not fully clear, but that article seems to speak of brute forcing, which is akin to dive for treasure = work. Not arbitrarily reasigning ownership of bitcoins based on bad economic theories.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
What’s bad economic theory? That neither inflation nor deflation is by definition good or bad? In real terms its the same effect or do you mean that you have earned it better by taking it with brute force?
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
I can imagine pseudo intellectual leeches using that blog post as justification for reallocation forever, I can imagine it will be Craig’s second biggest regret after the 1mb block limit
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Taking it by brute force is an attack, you don’t know where the private key is and are not suddenly entitled to give it to someone else because you think enough time has passed
1CtfHjRxn4UzNinEgUJgCCSV98yAZ6zVrZ (24100) ·
Bad economic theory is thinking it's good for a growing Bitcoin economy to have its money suffer arbitrary code base changes related to such a fundamental thing as property rights.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
You mixing up economics with code. I talked about economics, you are the one talking about code changes. Bizarre taking the brute force argument in the same sentence as defending property rights, you don’t see a contradiction here?
1CtfHjRxn4UzNinEgUJgCCSV98yAZ6zVrZ (24100) ·
The only way your 80-year scheme could be implemented in practice is through a code change, right?
The brute force thing is just reality. If a hashing algo is 'broken', you gotta change the algo and move the coins.
12tDncQvFZaZzqanupmtXpDUm42Wd4Cn4W (4721) ·
You could implement it in script, possibly using r puzzles and then convince everyone not to use pubkeyhash
1CtfHjRxn4UzNinEgUJgCCSV98yAZ6zVrZ (24100) ·
Well, ok. My point was just that I am rather tired of seeing 'clever' proposals that change how the money works. We have had to dealt with that since forever, and the code base freeze of BSV is one if its most attractive qualities imo.
12tDncQvFZaZzqanupmtXpDUm42Wd4Cn4W (4721) ·
Agreed, that’s why if you want to do this, you should do it in script we’ll all leave if the protocol is changed
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
It will happen anyhow with regard to BSV king in my thread, you will have to adapt like a capitalist. With that said there already seems to be a more organic solution anticipated urging to balance the deflation/inflation issue not far from what I proposed.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Adapting like a capitalist can mean exiting :)
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
I think Craig talked about other similar solutions to what you are talking about in the article? However that is seldom possible for all the already lost coins.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
It was never arbitrarily, you still would have to mine it with POW if you read thoroughly. Rather than the economics I’m more surprised that it again already might be an anticipated technical solution expected.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
The 80 year threshold was however arbitrary. Yes, effectively it will be the same thing from the economic perspective of balancing the inflation/deflation issue but more organic than a centralized decision.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
It’s hard to propose to change how money works. It’s kind of a law of nature and only our understanding improves. The protocol (white paper) is set in stone, not the code. I wouldn’t expect as much code volatility going forward as looking back.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
I dont want anything but understand if Bitcoin is deflationary but it seems like a HF is coming in the future to balance it the best possible way either you want it or not. I wouldnt expect this to affect any other code interfaces.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
There is nothing to balance. There is no problem. Other people’s money gaining purchasing power is not a problem.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
If money are gaining purchasing power simply by holding there is a as big problem as inflation. You just haven’t lived to experience it yet.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Again this is true only in the fiat monetary paradigm because it also increases the price of the debt which dwarfs the available credit units. This is not a problem with commodity money until a too big to fail institution is not allowed to write off debt.
1CtfHjRxn4UzNinEgUJgCCSV98yAZ6zVrZ (24100) ·
That's going to happen with Bitcoin even if no one lost his or her coins. Productivity growth in the economy, combined with no growth in money supply means purchasing power grows even if you do nothing.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
The reason to prefer deflation is natural i the current time and is rational today but when we grow old if the system clings on to that notion we will be the central bankers of 2070 looking like crazy for deflation instead with profound impact on society.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
U dont know that but maybe, however Bitcoin shouldnt favor any outcome more than necessary meaning in one way or another maintaining 21m units in use which seem to be the anticipated case already. And holding is of course a use case but a lost unit is not.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
No, can you explain the logic how you earn purchasing power by simply holding? How did you deserve that? Who has to pay? Is that a “fair” market structure in the long run?
Lending it out at interest is something different which Bitcoin doesn’t affect.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
You gain purchasing power because things naturally become less expensive as companies improve under competition. Paid for by gains in efficiency. I agree early adopter gains aren’t “fair” but I think you’d agree that’s not what we’re really discussing.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
That’s exactly what we are discussing and it’s not isolated to early adopters but to all “unnecessary” favoring of deflation that incentivize holding rather than usage and building.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Holding is just delaying resource consumption for later, it does not harm anyone. You are mixing at least 3 concepts into one labeled “deflation” and to you this justifies reallocation of funds away from their voluntary transaction pathways.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
A lost unit is not a use case equivalent of holding why it contribute to “unnecessary” deflation. However there seem to be an organic solution, I.e hard fork, anticipated to meet that issue already.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Nobody actually benefits except miners who push to reclaim. You couldn’t solve the problem in the general case even if you did. It’s just the first step in the inevitable corruption of every currency. We agree it is inevitable, but it’s a warning sign.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
No again. The point is to make all benefit from competing equally in a system being rationally incentivized, which it seems to be even in this regard as far as possible already. It’s a feature or at least not a bug just as zero bound interests are today.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
I do not mix three concepts of deflation, it’s the appreciation of money’s purchasing power. Also, I have never justified to reallocate funds that anyone claims. Please cite were any other definition or advocacy occurred.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
You use deflation to refer to gains due to increased adoption and also to the slow gain of purchasing power of any money that isn’t designed to lose value as if they are one phenomenon. You could imagine a fiat currency that fixes 1 while preserving 2.
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Not saying that would be better, it would be worse precisely because deflation is bad in a fiat like debt/credit system. With bitcoin at equilibrium deflation just means your savings are worth more, it doesn’t cause the system to contract and malfunction.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
Appreciation due to adoption/usage is real growth and not avoidable deflation. A lost unit is not. I have never said that money should be designed to lose value. Inflation is just as bad. How exactly was any of this stated? I dont understand the last part.
15YXRhqbHawbH49aYzfiww2UQ4Cz82GL4t (622) ·
If you're want a stable supply, you'll never find it.
The moment someone changes from a net holder/saver to a net spender, the supply (in relation to price inflation/deflation) changes, too.
This is because prices are set on the margin.
15YXRhqbHawbH49aYzfiww2UQ4Cz82GL4t (622) ·
Money not spent is indistinguishable from money not in existence when it comes to price setting, except inasmuch as the holder of the not-spent money changes their marginal valuation of their money for having more on hand.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
Damnit speed limit!
The current system wouldn’t technically malfunction, society however would, same as with Bitcoin and deflation.
If we are back at “deflation just means your savings are worth more” I rest my case.
15YXRhqbHawbH49aYzfiww2UQ4Cz82GL4t (622) ·
If a man has $10 quadrillion today but never spends it, no prices are affected by that extra supply of money.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
What’s your point? Mine is that lost units probably will be recovered and that’s good because a more stable supply (less in-/deflation) is better than a less stable supply (more in-/deflation), agree?
15YXRhqbHawbH49aYzfiww2UQ4Cz82GL4t (622) ·
My point is that no protocol change is either necessary or desirable for the alleged purpose of "stability".
In fact, "stability" itself is a misnomer in economics. There is no such thing, only varying degrees of instability.
19CZX2Au1CCbFug3HjjtevywLSRXCm1AZf (7124) ·
Is this a questioning of any of my claims? How is this related to the current topic and status of the discussion. Is there any conflict?
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Yes, your claim is nonsense and impossible to argue against because you take us in circles, but rest assured you have convinced nobody of anything
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
For your coins we’re gonna have a 24 hour period before they are reallocated for miners, that’s because we have deemed them to be “lost”
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
It’s good for the economy and you better not doubt it or else we’re gonna be a debate only an academic economist could enjoy and you better convince us on our terms or else we take the coins
1JQS2GuJbdf9zcbHyz3pTKKBNJ8trp4pWV (2782) ·
Wouldn’t you feel more stable if someone gave you some coins that might belong to someone else or might be lost who knows anyway we determined you can have them now doesn’t that feel stable hmmmm yeah nice